Curse

Matsumi · Apr 16, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/AoE

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage_over_time

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Barrage

Interesting what it says about Damage on Attack on the Barrage skill, relating to SS. That's all I'll say... sorry if I came off as being insulting Ira.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Matsumi
Im not sure I understand what you trying to say

Matsumi · Apr 16, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

did the links not show up?

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

get to the point please.

Matsumi · Apr 16, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Nope, that's it, that's all I'm gonna say, and leave with. The point of it all is inside the links, it also talks about the AoE update on one or two of them. Have a great day everyone.

lyra_song · Apr 16, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

My stance on this:

Eles got gimped too much. They need to be revamped HEAVILY.

Rangers using barrage is not a "win all" button. Its only viable in specific builds and locations. Specifically Tombs. And how recent was this?

Curse Necromancers with Spiteful Spirit are very powerful. Versus people however, its quite easy to deal with. I agree that AI needs adjustment, but not in the same reaction to AOE spell damage.

MelechRic · Apr 16, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Matsumi's point is that if you read through the GuildWiki definitions of AoE and DoT you see that any periodic AoE is a subcategory DoT.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Matsumi's point is that if you read through the GuildWiki definitions of AoE and DoT you see that any periodic AoE is a subcategory DoT.

o...k where did I ever disagree with that?

LifeInfusion · Apr 16, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Uh SS is a hex. If the monsters didnt attack stupidly and instead spread out (not run, but spread out), it wouldn't be AOE. Therefore it shouldn't be classified as DOT AOE.

Barrage is not "AOE" according to the definition because it is activated by the player and attacks up to 6 foes. It doesn't target the spot but the foe and foes near that foe.
"Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target"
is not the same as "hit everything in the area" or in firestorm's case " For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for (Min: 5 - Max: 29) fire damage each second."

DOT AOE should NOT encompass skills like Aftershock, whirlwind, Flame burst, or Crystal wave though. They are not DOT but Player activated like Barrage.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Uh SS is a hex. If the monsters didnt attack stupidly and instead spread out (not run, but spread out), it wouldn't be AOE. Therefore it shouldn't be classified as DOT AOE.

Barrage is not "AOE" according to the definition because it is activated by the player and attacks up to 6 foes. It doesn't target the spot but the foe and foes near that foe.
"Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target"
is not the same as "hit everything in the area" or in firestorm's case " For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for (Min: 5 - Max: 29) fire damage each second."

DOT AOE should NOT encompass skills like Aftershock, whirlwind, Flame burst, or Crystal wave though. They are not DOT but Player activated like Barrage.

gj on reading the thread and totaly disregarding it.

Jagflame · Apr 17, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Ah ha! Barrage has been proven to not be an AoE at all, and by none other than the other skill that has been compared in this thread!

Read the description of Spiteful Spirit's effect carefully.

Quote:

For 8...18 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful spirit deals 5...29 shadow damage to that foe and all adjacent foes.

Now read this:

Quote:

Be very careful that you are not hexed with a "damage on attack" hex (such as Spiteful Spirit or Empathy or Insidious Parasite) when you use this skill, as the recieved damage does stack, and may be quickly fatal. Attacking multiple monks (especially Azure Shadows) that have enchantments that deal damage to the attacker with Barrage can also kill you quickly.

Look over both of those again. Spiteful Spirit deals damage whenever a foe attacks or uses a skill. If Barrage hits six targets, the SS damage will hit him six times. But Barrage is only one skill? Ah ha. This means it counts Barrage as six individual attacks.

If Barrage is six individual attacks, then it is not AoE as it is hitting only individual targets. I rest my case.

arcanemacabre · Apr 17, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Okay, I think I'm really lost on the relevance of the definitions of AoE and what it has to do with the AI's reaction to SS and Barrage (which, BTW, is why I stopped replying earlier, it was off topic).

First of all, SS is definately an AoE skill, packaged neatly into a conditional Hex. Any skill that have the words "adjacent foes" or "foes in the area" is an AoE. Barrage is an Attack Skill that plainly "Attacks" up to 6 targets. Not an AoE.

Secondly, the point (I believe) of this thread is what should be done to "nerf" these skills, to which the suggestion of having mobs run from it as they do other AoE skills. I think any improvement to AI is an improvement overall. Make the game more challenging, that's really what this is all about.

Arguing semantics gets nothing accomplished. Offering up suggestions as to what can be done, and/or if something should be done is constructive, however. Whether or not these skills are AoE or DoT, point is, if it's too easy to kill mobs with them, then Anet must make it harder. That's my take on it.

Jagflame · Apr 17, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

First of all, SS is definately an AoE skill, packaged neatly into a conditional Hex.

I never said it wasn't an AoE, I'm just trying to argue my case on why Spiteful Spirit wasn't nerfed with the big AoE nerf awhile back. Which actually was the original point of the topic, I don't believe any of this was off-topic.

Quote:

Any skill that have the words "adjacent foes" or "foes in the area" is an AoE.

Actually, no, that statement was too general. Barrage has the words "Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target" and it is not an AoE, as you have already said.

Viruzzz · Apr 17, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

god, is this thread still going??

my definition of DoT is very clear, anything that does consistent damage no matter what action the target is performing, and what enchantments/conditions is active on the target.

example. poison is DoT. it will ALLWAYS do 8 damage per second, no matter what you do, you can't lessen the damage it does byt casting anything on the target. and no. Mending doesn't count. it does not alter the damage done by poison at all, it only provides its own damage over time (allthough its negative damage, so it stacks)

but why is SS and MoP not DoT then? me no understand...
first of all, the damage that mark of pain and spitefull spirit does is not a set amount. there are ways to alter the damage (protective spirit, frenzy, healing signet, reversal of fortune, Mark of Protection to name a few, and yes i mean few, there are a lot of ways to alter it)
mark of pain also depends on the frequency of attacks, and type(physical) which mean blind will slow it, any evade/block skill will slow it, as will moving, because you wont get attacked as frequently.

so the short version. SS and MoP is NOT DoT because there are ways to alter the damage, or completely negate it

Jagflame · Apr 17, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Viruzzz, although I agree that SS and MoP are not DoT, I don't agree with your whole post. They are not DoT because their damage is not consistant and always depends on the target's action.

But DoT can definitly be healed. DoT that causes degeneration is negated or altered by regeneration. DoT that causes consistant damage (such as fire storm) can be altered or negated by spells such as reversal of fortune and healing hands.

Str0b0 · Apr 17, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Secondly, the point (I believe) of this thread is what should be done to "nerf" these skills, to which the suggestion of having mobs run from it as they do other AoE skills. I think any improvement to AI is an improvement overall. Make the game more challenging, that's really what this is all about.

There is nothing that you can do to the AI that will make SS less effective. You really have two options when dealing with SS. they can run or they can run and stop doing anything but running until the hex wears off, this is in the absence of hex removal skills in the group. The problem with the first option is the way the AI handles the chicken run. When they scatter they scatter then regroup seconds later. The strategy involved in using SS is to hit as many targets as possible with it. So they attack they get the damage spike and the scatter is triggered. they scatter, they probably try to heal if able adding more damage and then they regroup. All you have done is broken up the interval between spikes slightly and added a few seconds to the kill time.

The second option, which would bring the AI more inline with what a real player would do with SS on them in the absence of hex removal, is to have them run until the curse is removed. This in effect shuts down all enemies with SS on them. A good curse necro with SS or worse still a curse and battery necro working in concert could keep an entire enemy group shut down indefinately making them easy prey for rangers and warriors who have either skills or just innate bonuses to attacking fleeing enemies. Basically you have taken the highest damaging skill in the game and turned it into the most goldy shut down skill in the game. You haven't balanced anything you just shifted the imbalance from one side to the other. I think this is why ANet left the skill alone because outside of basically replacing the skill entirely there is no good way to nerf it down. The damage scales with the size of the group so lowering the damage would only encourage the pulling or larger groups to close the damage gap. You have the aforementioned problems with altering the AI. In the end it's fine the way it is and needs to be left alone. The only reason it is widely used is because of previous nerfs to AoE spells and 55 monk builds which illustrates another problem with nerfing popular skills or builds. Someone will figure out a way to exploit the nerf to their advantage or a way to get around it. What you take on one end you lose on the other end.

Jagflame · Apr 17, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Most of the time, people that "cry nerf" are people that would benefit from it. If they like playing mesmer and warriors have some skill that everyone wants, the mesmer gets jealous and says the warrior's skill should be nerfed. That's the way it goes.

You might not agree with it, even though you know it's true.

However, those people will almost always lay the "hard" card. They claim that they just want it nerfed in order to make the game more challenging, when in all reality if their profession were the one with the great skill they wouldn't say anything.

In most cases, the "hard" card works. In this case it doesn't. Causing SS to scatter mobs would not make the game harder for anyone. All it would do is cause the mobs to take longer to die. Making it take longer is definitly not making it harder, just making it more boring.

Even if they nerf SS, that just means people will find another skill to use to farm with and then the people that can't use that skill will be crying nerf. Then that skill gets nerfed and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. It's honestly quite stupid, the game will never be completely balanced so I don't know why people think it will.

If you don't like that a certain skill is dominating the game, then use that awsome creativity that you seem to think all GW players should have and find another freaking skill to try to replace it. Nerfing isn't always the answer.

Str0b0 · Apr 17, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Amen. Although I will say that the OP does have an SS necro. Why they would want to nerf their own character I have no idea. I agree though. The people that cry nerf seldom want balance. Usually it's a spiteful, selfish action.

Witchdoctor Avignon · Apr 17, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

A good curse necro with SS or worse still a curse and battery necro working in concert could keep an entire enemy group shut down indefinately making them easy prey for rangers and warriors who have either skills or just innate bonuses to attacking fleeing enemies. Basically you have taken the highest damaging skill in the game and turned it into the most goldy shut down skill in the game. You haven't balanced anything you just shifted the imbalance from one side to the other. .

I actually disagree with you here. This doesn't shift power...It distributes power. It does what the game was designed for...TEAMWORK. If the nerf did come true and SS necro's were in essence a "godly shutdown player"...It would require more than another 55 monk to kill groups. Like you said, Ranger/Warriors with enemy fleeing attacks. I don't see how this is a problem. You creating a fix that brings more characters into the fold.

On a similar note...this isn't a game where your only allowed one player. If SS Necro's are able to use a spell that makes the game exploitable, then make one yourself.

This is the most balanced game I've ever played. There will never be true equality because this is far to complex a game that DOESN'T require a subscription. People will find a way no matter how hard you try to snuff it out. So I completely agree w/ everyone who has pointed out that another nerf will only create another loop-hole somewhere else. That's the genius of this game. It's constantly being thought about. There must be a little shop somwhere with people just sitting around thinking up the next great thing.

Just my 2Cents.

Count to Potato · Apr 17, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

If you look around in the last four missions, there is a need for elementalists that nuke, so they aren't extinct, secondly i went stance tank farming with my e/mo, i used renewal meteor shower with shield of judgement... Owned